Ramadaniyat (VII)

We always hear people say there are no faults in Islam; it is always in the holy book’s different interpretations. Now let’s look at the only creature that united all Moslem cleric in their interpretations; woman. Clerics from all sects and beliefs disagree on many issues, yet they always agree when the subject concerns woman.
When I ask a religious woman if she really believes that Islam treated her fairly, she would go on comparing women in Jahiliya and their rights to women after Islam, forgetting that all her information came from Islamic sources, which she was forced to recite ever since she could remember, stories, which are naturally biased with a little icing on the cake. And although she feels her situation amongst her society is unjust compared to men, yet she blames it on the interpretation.
Ok here is one thing that is clear; I believe that Quran humiliated women; one simple example is by allowing her to be beaten by her man. And this was clear in a verse in Quran; now let’s see the different interpretations to this verse:





As a woman, I feel inferior to this type of mentality.

And now let’s see what others have to say about this
check this

Now let’s see what do you have to say

44 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. erzulie
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 01:23:38

    So what if my husband to be is “disobedient”? Can I smack him around as well? Or is the woman the sole ruiner of the family?

    You know, I think this SHOULD be taken in a metaphorical manner. I don’t think that violence of any sort is constructive. Personally, having knowledge that someone is angry or disappointed at me is MUCH MUCH worse than a “light beating.”

    Reply

  2. ummel3yal
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 02:17:16

    I think my blood pressure is at it a record high. It is one thing to know of the rule but it’s another to see “educated” men defending it.

    The question is, why is it ok for a man to hit his wife under the “ghawama” rule, but it’s not ok for the same man to hit his employees? He will still be the “judge” and the “wiseman” to those people too! He still has a social and financial powers over them.

    What about the “exceptions of the rule” as mentioned in one of the clips: when the woman is the “judge” and “source of wisdom” and the family provider? Does that give her the right to hit him? Does it still have to be mild? Nothing planned — just a question😉

    Reply

  3. miyafushi
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 02:44:16

    As far as my knowledge goes, the ‘light beating’ is meant to be as a third attempt to convey the anger and dissapointment as erzulie said, by giving the wifes hand a gentle smack.

    Just to get the point across and make her feel ashamed.

    Reply

  4. Proletarian
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 08:19:53

    When a man beat a woman he no longer becomes a man.
    I have one question for the so called clerks; if the man did something wrong, can the women beat him?
    Sara7a its my first time I heard all of these stuff in detailed. Enba6at chabdii…

    Reply

  5. erzulie
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 09:31:27

    This may have made sense when it was introduced during that time and age. I am just supposing that before this rule came along, women were treated lower than the family dog. So, a “light beating” would actually be a good thing because before this was instituted, women were probably beaten to death when they forget a simple, redundant household task.

    There are some particular things that I do not agree with in the Quran. However, to say that the “Quran humiliates women” as a whole…well, that I do not agree with. I think that women are highly treasured i.e. “El jana ta7t aqdam il omahat” or something like that (I do apologize if I butchered the phrase). Also, I remember a 7adeeth. A guy asked the Prophet who should I love most (or something of that sort) and the Prophet said the he should treasure his mother three times more than his father i.e. “Umok, umok, umok thoma abook.” I don’t remember most of the ayyas/a7adeeth that I memorized when I was in school, but anecdotes such as this one stick in my mind because I think it is timeless i.e. honoring one’s mother.
    Anyhow, I think that although the Quran says that “El Islam 9ale7 fee koli zaman wa makan,” there are some things that should be considered.

    I do not think any doctrine or ideology is perfect. We hail Aristotle’s virtues in “Nico. Ethics,” yet we dismiss that he Okayed slavery and thought that women were not as mentally “capable” as men i.e. participation in communal consensus, holding office, etc.

    People will argue that the Quran is God’s direct word. However, it was memorized by mere mortals before it was written down, ordinary human beings who just might have tweaked the wording subconsciously in a just and fair manner in their historical setting. So although it seemed fantastically righteous and moral to them, to us it seems just a bit demeaning because our society is no longer structured and as isolated as it is.

    Personally, I try as much as I can to stay away from discussing such touchy topics because it is a personal issue, in my case that is. What I’m trying to say is that what I believe is what I believe alone. I suppose I’m coming from a utilitarian stance here but I don’t see how presenting my objections directed to a religion embraced by the majority of my equals as something that does more good than harm, to others and myself as well.

    Cheers Ayya 🙂

    Reply

  6. Proletarian
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 10:54:13

    Erzuili,
    One of the great books that analysis the Arab history before and after Islam is called Al naza3at el madeyah fi el falsafah el 3arabiya al islamiyah, written by Hussen Mrawa. Also, you can read the Arab in History written by Bernard Lewis. In both books it portrayed that the Arab before Islam gave women their full rights. And the suffering of women was the exception. Big example Khadejah, she was wealthy and she is the one who ask Mohammad to marry her.
    Do not repeat what they are saying how Islam saved women. It is not true… every thing that we learned in school is not right either…
    The issue is very sensitive for some but how can we change our condition if we do not even talk about it…
    YOU the WOMEN SHOULD ASK FOR MORE EQUIEL RIGHTS… your rights is not giving, it should be taking from the authority…

    I’m going to fail the test… I just came from the movies and I’m blogging… damn…. Bye :-))

    Reply

  7. Judy Abbott
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 11:46:57

    You know what i was thinking of the same thing..
    we always hear god will give me 7oor il 3een , will h=give them 70 women in heaven.. and when it comes to women they will get heaven with rivers and nature and food.. what about what women wants? its never mentioned!!
    Is it to keep us women as a mystry or what i dunno..

    Another thing, about the hitting, i still don’t get it, honestly i met lots of women who are treated that way since they were kids and this is how things work with them, but thats not right and i believe this aya came for specific people “aljahala”!!!

    lots of questions about women floating in my breain, its disappointing. till today i didn’t find one religoun that would support women and make them be interested in heaven!

    About Dr. alnajar, i disagree with many of his views, because as if seems he is reading with the wronge arabic dictionary and he might have some weakness in grammer.. When awladokom for instance is used, it can be for both girls and boys because that how il jam3 bil 3araby.. and many more of these gaps, yet his point of wa2d il banat makes good sence.

    Thats why i believe in the shiite regiem more, because things make more sence over there, i hope Dr.alanajar would read into that sector about women and mind the other gaps in it.

    ” i can give you alonger explanation if you wish”

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  8. ummel3yal
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 11:58:17

    erzulie,

    As a mother I always loved the 7deeth:
    أمك ثم أمك ثم أمك ثم أبوك

    But in real life I’ve seen “good” fathers being punished, and dominating and abusive mothers being cherished based on this concept. Is that fair? How do we cater for the pathological cases?

    This is brings us to your question, what is the point of attacking the personal beliefs (religion) of the majority?

    To me, religion is Kuwait is not personal. It affects the family and society and those who do not wish to comply. So, if someone else’s beleifs are affecting me or affecting MY personal freedom, then I have a right to fight back or at least question why?

    What if the Salaf became the decision makers in Kuwait, and based on their interputations of the Islam decided that women should not drive cars or get into colleges. How would you feel about that? What can you do then?

    I beleive challanging the norms and style of thinking today safeguard us against such a scenario in the future🙂

    Reply

  9. Judy Abbott
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 12:09:08

    sorry i don’t know how i posted 3 times.. sorry. the 3rd is the one to read.

    Reply

  10. bosale7
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 14:33:54

    الشيء الغريب ان الاسلام ما نص على تقويم الرجل …دائما مرتكز على ان المرأة من ضلع اعوج …طيب ماكل العقوبات بالاسلام فيها للذكر والانثى …الا سالفة الضرب هذي زيادة للمرأة …خل نحلل اكثر …اذا العقوبات الاسلامية مافرقت بين الرجل والمرأة بكل الخطايا …. شنو فايدة ان الرجل خلق من ضلع قويم والمرأة من ضلع اعوج ؟؟؟
    مو شي متناقض وغريب ؟؟
    اللي يطلق الاوصاف ويتهم الناس بالقصور المفروض انه يكون كامل …لكن وضع الرجل بالاسلام مو كامل …. شفتي التناقض !!

    Reply

  11. NewMe
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 19:50:05

    اشكرج على هالموضوع الرائع
    كالعادة كتاباتك دائما تعبر عن كثير مما يجول في خاطري
    لم ينصف الاسلام المرأة
    كذلك لم ينصفها أي دين آخر
    والمرأة لا تنصف نفسها
    لانها نتاج غسيل مخ
    ومتى ما قالت كلمة حق
    راح تكون فاجرة وفاسقة وبطيخ
    كنت احترم الشيخ عبداللطيف المحمود كثيرا
    تربطني به معرفه شخصية من خلال العمل
    وله مواقف عديدة جعلتني أغير وجهة نظري عن المسلمين
    وبعد ما سمعت ما قاله أقول لم يبقى أحد
    عقلي لا يقبل ما سمعت
    لن أقبل أن أعامل كنصف إنسان
    أو على أساس أني معوجه
    وإن كنت فلن يصلح العطار ما أفسد الدهر
    لا بالطق ولا بغيرة
    دامي عوية وخلقت الله
    مستحيل انعدل وخل يصطفلوا
    دمتي بحب
    تحياتي

    Reply

  12. AyyA
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 20:37:55

    Thanks all for your participation, I’m online most of the times and I read and re-read your comment because I care, some of the comments are very interesting, and to avoid any confusion I added the link, and I think it’s very important for Moslems to read it. Especially men, and I say men and not women because in my opinion women were never treated justly neither in Islam nor in any other religion. But Moslem women are the most who are treated badly and if anything can change this it’s us, not religion, and we need man’s full support.
    Waiting patiently for more insight, and I wish everyone can be frank, unafraid of being judged by others, after all, if others believe in the freedom of speech they shouldn’t be judgmental. And if they don’t, then who needs them?

    Reply

  13. erzulie
    Oct 07, 2006 @ 21:57:48

    Ummel3yal,

    Even if the Salaf were to assume (more) power, preventing women to drive and neglecting them from an equal education is preposterous. THAT is a wrong interpretation. It’s not even an intrepretation!
    If that ever happens, I know that something would be done to them.

    Proletarian,

    Well, from what I know, women did not have as much rights and were not honored as much as they were before Islam was founded.
    For me, I hate to dwell in the past and state, “Well, women DID participate in the battlefield.” So what? What are WE (women) doing now?
    Personally, I am ALL for a secular state. Tangling religion in politics is dangerous because abuse is most probable. And contrary to what ummel3yal said, I think that religion is personal and I don’t think involving society is necessary. It’s a relationship (or not) between you and who or whatever you worship. Of course, this is not including religious traditions. But since the core of religion is faith i.e. something very personal, I don’t see why it is shoved into the political arena.

    I digressed.

    Reply

  14. ummel3yal
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 00:24:05

    Erzulie,

    Till 2 years ago, Saudi women have been banned from driving based on an official fatwa. A husband has to approve his wife’s application for a college degree. If he hits her (even with a bruise) she has no legal rights to defend her self. Hundreds of little girls die in Egypt and Sudan because of an Islamic fatwa that mandated female circumcision! So this is not a theoretical scenario. It is a persent and very close by fact. We can not sit and wait till then to do something. We find it hard to do anything right now and we are not an Islamic state. What can we do when we are?

    I agree that religion is a personal choice. I also agree that some people NEED religion as a safeguard and/or point of reference. But once this religion begins to invade or attack my personal choices then I have a problem. The only way to control this is showing and discussing how some people’s choices are affecting others’.

    Reply

  15. kila_ma6goog
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 02:28:55

    موضوع ممتاز , و اقسم بالله اني اول مرة اشوف فيديو صلاة الجمعة, يحليله مستخدم نفس مثالي مال المانيوال

    لوول

    أوكي, لنفترض ان الاسلام يبيح ضرب الزوج لزوجته؟ هل هذا كافي لعدم اتباعه؟ أو ان هناك اسباب اكبر؟

    Reply

  16. AyyA
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 05:45:10

    KM
    You should’ve had your copy-right on the term “manual”, now it’s too late ;p

    No, beating wives is not the only reason, but when it comes to woman issues in general, Islam had placed her as a second citizen, and that is called discrimination, unworthy to be coming from a just God. I added the link to give a brief of all the questions that occurred to most Moslem women during their Islamic upbringing. And it answers many of their doubts. I’m not taking my information from Dr. Alnajar though, I have researched before on most of what he mentioned myself, and I agree with everything he said except for the part where he said that Maryam bint 3omran is Moses’ sister, and this can’t be since there is a gap of centuries between Moses and Mariyam bint 3omran, so when Quran said “ya okht Haroon” it must’ve meant another Haroon. But it’s not clear who is he. But anyway, this is beside the point.
    The point is not only a woman issue; it’s the contradictories in Islamic religion that I find hard to fathom. And the subject of woman is only one example. Islam claims that there is no difference between man and woman, sets responsibilities/rights to both, punishes/rewards them the same, but that is only in theory, when it deals with practicality; coming from directions through verses taken from Quran, I don’t see that Islam is up to its claim. And I brought this clear verse in Quran to show that it’s not the interpretation all the time. When the verse is clear, who would dare disobey the word of God and create his own interpretation? As the guy in the video mentioned; mosh ana eli baqool, da rabina howa ili beqool. And he is right.

    Reply

  17. ولاّدة
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 09:08:44

    مريت أسلم وأقول وحشتيني
    :*

    أما الموضوع فيحلو لي نقاشه على كوب شاي حليب في جلسة نسائية لها طعم الهيل والقرفة

    Reply

  18. erzulie
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 10:45:53

    Umel3yal,

    I’m not religious but I don’t think people are stupid enough to convert to Islam or stick to it if it actually DOES condone female circumcision.

    I am not aware of female circumcision being Okayed fatwa-wise in Egypt, but I am pretty sure that it is wrong morally and actually goes against Islam. Male circumcision is performed in the holy religions out of sanitary reasons, but female circumcisions are done to prevent girls from having premarital sex. It’s just basic mutilation of females and it prevents them from enjoying themselves sexually when they get married.

    And I really want to know WHY Saudi women can’t drive. Why? I am really curious to know about the “logical reasoning” behind it. Is it considered…immoral?

    And I think females’ education is controlled in Saudi only because the male heads don’t want any revolts or such i.e. “Keep on holding to your reins men.”

    When I look at ANY religion, I don’t see what this country is doing or what that person is performing. They do NOT impersonate the essence of the religion. And I think looking at a country or a person from any sect would be the last place I would turn to when I want to observe and study a religion.

    I don’t think present-day applications of religions is done in a just and appropriate manner. If one looks at such states that have the application of religion as the law, then well, I think that harms the religion’s true nature because the application does not do the religion justice.

    AyyA,

    I am against the whole “light beating” bit. There are many things I do not agree with in Islam but there are things that are actually all right. But I think one must keep in mind the setting and time period of when these phrases were created.

    A question for you AyyA (and for others who are reading this who might also know the answer): When was the Quran written down? It is referred to as the direct words of God but the Prophet was illiterate and although people back then had an amazing ability to memorize poetic verses, I assume that it must have taken time to actually have the Quran down on paper. So how long did it take until it was written down and by whom?

    Reply

  19. AyyA
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 13:02:46

    Princess
    Ya7aya allah min yana, wi ana agool rea7at elbokhoor fay7a min elblog :*

    Erzulie
    This question was raised in one of the blogs about two months back and I’m copy-pasting my comment here:
    “According to Islamic history, Quran was compiled at the Time of the third khalifat who assigned this mission to Zaid Bin Thabit and stressed on keeping the Hijazi language. And the reason for that as reported was; a lot of “ moqri’s” ( the men who recited Quran by heart) were killed during Yamama war. The compilation did not consider the chronological order, rather was organized by size ( biggest soras first). At the same time Othman ordered other copies to be burned (why?). This created a revolt within some first believers such as Ibn Masud who refused to destroy his copy, and the revolt ended by assassinating the third khaleefat. There are so many traditions (hadeaths) about this period, one contradicting another from different groups where struggle for power based on dogmas of the written verses showed a peak within the Islamic entity.
    The first copy of the contemporary Quran with dots and signs was issued in the last period of Umayyad’s and the beginning of Alabasi period without any change to the Othoman copy. It also was at this time when the science of Shareea, Tafseer, and traditions among others immerged in accordance to the final copy. As you can see here is a lot of human intervention over a long period of time, and the chance of error is valid. In other words this was the best copy that Islamic minds at their peak came up with, without divergence from the Othman copy. Which also means that part of this copy is doubtful, yet, which part we don’t know. On that respect the whole script looses its authenticity.”

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  20. ummel3yal
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 14:28:01

    Dear Erzulie,

    Please check these two links as simple example of what some think and feel 100% Islamic:

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html

    And,

    Reply

  21. you-sif
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 14:29:11

    بداية للذي يقرأ هذه الشبهات في سلسلة رمضانيات .. فليعلم أن هناك نصوص فرعية مرحلية بالاسلام .. لذلك جميع الذين هاجموا الاسلام ومنهم عتاة وكبار المستشرقين وليس مجرد فتاة تثيرها بعض التساؤلات التي لم تجد لها اجابات … فكل أولئك المستشرقين لم يجدوا ما يتهمون به الاسلام في أصوله لذلك يتجهون ويركزون على الفروع
    سيدتي … نعم ضرب الزوج لزوجته لا يتناسب مع الفطرة السليمة للإنسانية ونشد على يدك بمعارضتك لهذا الموقف الديني من المرأة ومن كثير من القضايا التي بإمكانك أن تكتبي عنها والتي تتعلق بظلم المرأة في المجتمعات الاسلامية والشمس لن تغطيها المناخل
    وخير مثال منع المرأة من قيادة السيارة في السعودية وهذا ابسط حق انساني .. علما بأن جميع الفقهاء في السعوديون لم يجدوااي نص ديني واحد يحرم المرأة لقيادة السيارة لذلك اتجهوا الى التعذر بالخلوة والاختلاط وخروجها من المنزل .. ودرء الشبهات ..الخ وهذا ليس له علاقة بقيادة السيارة

    I believe that Quran humiliated women
    تؤمنين بأن القرآن يهين المرأة
    هذا شأنك وحدك فقط

    أما نحن فنؤمن بأن القرآن الكريم كرم بني آدم ولم يفرق بين الذكروالأنثى الا بالحق الذي لا تشوبه شائبة .. اما التفرقة والتمايز والتفضيل فهو من صنع الشعوب والتراث
    ومن أكثر الشعوب التي تهين المرأة هي الشعوب العلمانية والتي وضعت مواثيق حقوق الانسان وهي فطرة بالذكر وليس بالمسلمين فقط .. أنظري الى الشعوب الآسيوية وكيف ان المرأة هي التي تكدح وتعمل في الحقول ثم بعد ذلك تدفع المهر للرجل حتى يتزوجها وتتولى هي أمور الصرف على المعيشة.. يا سيدتي .. كوني أكثر موضوعية عند بحثك للمواضيع الدينية

    Reply

  22. iDip
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 19:22:46

    Reply

  23. AyyA
    Oct 08, 2006 @ 23:44:18

    You-sif
    You want me to be more rational in my research, right? Fine; what is more rational in your belief? And how do you define it? By comparing Islamic situations concerning women with the most primitive societies? As if saying; 7imdi rabich 3ala eli inti feeh, gairich akhas. Now you are contradicting yourself as a Moslem believing that Islam is the final religion suitable for every time and location. What is the use of theory, when applying it to the world of reality; it simply does not work? What is the use of staying in our high towers, hoping, anticipating, when our reality smacks us on the head to wake up? We have to call a spade a spade for women to overcome the continuous atrocities exerted on them on the name of Islam, if we want to go by the book, we will never be justified. Our only salvation is to make our kind realize her rights as a human being away from the cliché that was forced on us by religion. Yes; I do not have to hide, it is the God of Moslems; allah that humiliated our kind, because this was not His words, but the words written by men, as is the case in other holy books, for God in my dictionary is much mightier than that.

    Reply

  24. you-sif
    Oct 09, 2006 @ 12:35:39

    يجب العودة معك الى المربع (واحد)في هذا النقاش .. لأنك تكفرين بالكتب السماوية !! وتتعدين على الله سبحانه وتعالى

    السؤال الأهم الذي يجب أن يوجه إليك .. من ربك ؟ وكيف تتعاملين معه ؟؟وهل ربك يحترم ويكرم بني جنسك ..النساء ؟؟ فإن كان خيرا من ربنا تبعناك وربك معا

    Reply

  25. نشاز
    Oct 09, 2006 @ 13:24:48

    المرأة وسيلة للتعويض عن المهانة التي يلقاها الرجل المقهور اجتماعيا وهي بذلك محرومة من الاعتراف بوجودها ككائن قائم بحد ذاته لا كضلع اعوج كما يريد رجال الدين “الذكور”
    ان إسقاط العيب والعار والضعف عند الرجل على المرأة يقابله إسقاط نقصه وخجله من ذاته على المستوى اللاواعي لتتحول المرأة من إنسان (مثلها مثل الرجل) إلى مجرد “غرض” لتفريغ كل العقد والأزمات والمخاوف والرغبات والاحباطات المكبوتة …
    لا تختلف كثيرا في ذلك عملية إحاطة المرأة بأساطير تسلبها كيانها الإنساني على كل الأصعدة والمستويات

    يوسف !!
    هذا شأن من لا يجد اي حجه يجيب على الأسئلة العديدة التي كتبتها صاحبة الموضوع !؟
    قفزا يقفزون إلى الحديث عن الله ومن هو !! وعرفونا عليه !!
    أنت تقول بان القرآن لم يفرق بين المرأة والرجل !!! حسنا ماذا يعني هذا إذا ؟؟
    الرجال قوامون على النساء ؟
    حق الميرات مختلف ؟
    شهادة الرجل بشهادة امرأتين ؟
    لا يحق للمرأة ان تكون قاضية وان حفظت القرآن ؟

    وماذا بالنسبة للحجاب ؟ لماذا علي كامرأة ان أأقلم ذاتي بحيث يتماشى هذا مع نزوة الرجل الذي لا يعرف التحكم بغريزته ؟؟ لماذا لا يذهب هذا الرجل الى الجحيم ويلبس هو الحجاب !! ما دام أي شيء وكل شيء يثيره جنسيا !؟. لماذا علي أنا كأنثى تحمله والتكيف مع رغباته !؟

    لنتفق ان الله موجود
    لا يعقل أن الله “العادل” هو الذي كتب القرآن !!؟ لأنه لم يكن عادلا فيما كتب

    شكرا AYYA
    انا احب مواضيعك واتابعك كثيرا

    Reply

  26. AyyA
    Oct 09, 2006 @ 19:13:26

    You-sif
    Why do you want to know my God? And what is it to you to know how I worship Him? And why would you want to follow anyone? I believe in diversity, I believe in the power of the mind, I believe that each person has his own truths that he reaches by using his brains, I do not follow anyone, neither expect anyone to follow me. I do not despise the ones who have different beliefs than mine; neither respect them when they despise mine. If you understood from my Ramadaniyat posts that I’m calling for a rebellion against one’s beliefs, you are mistaken. I do not care what people believe, or how they worship God, but I care for humanity, and it annoys me to see my kind being treated unjustly on the accounts of some dusted fables of dead men. I don’t try to convince them of my beliefs; yet, I care for them to open their brains after being brainwashed for centuries. I care for justice, and my God is justice.

    Nashaz
    Welcome to my blog, your insights are refreshing, thanks, btw; does nishaz and nashiz have the same origin in Arabic language? One more question; why nashiz is only associated with woman and not man?

    Reply

  27. soud
    Oct 10, 2006 @ 13:14:44

    النشاز والناشز تقريبا نفس المعنى

    النشاز تطلق على الصوت الخارج عن المألوف
    والناشز تطلق على الزوجة الخارجة عن طاعه ولى أمرها زوجها يعنى

    خارج عن الموضوع
    PS Required Kuwaiti English female teacher , for young student😉

    Reply

  28. you-sif
    Oct 10, 2006 @ 14:47:32

    آية
    واضح أن نَفَسك قصير بالسجالات ونحن لم نبدأ بعد
    سألتك من ربك ؟؟
    وبعد هذه المقدمة الطويلة المليئة بالعصبيةواللمز يأتينا الجواب
    my God is justice
    العدالة قيمة إنسانية وليست إله يا سيدتي

    سيدتي نشاز
    قوامون .. بمعنى كثيروا القيام .. قام يقوم قاموا ..
    أي كثيروا العمل .. وهذا تفسير منطقي يتوافق مع العقل والمنطق
    ونقاطك صغيرة ولكنها تحتاج لشرح وافي ننصحك بكتب الدكتور محمد عمارة

    Reply

  29. نشاز
    Oct 10, 2006 @ 16:01:09

    يوسف
    أنت تقول
    العدالة قيمة إنسانية وليست إله !!
    لنفترض ذلك
    حسنا وما هو الإله ؟ هل هو الذي خلق الكون!؟
    أنت أردت ان تؤمن بهذا الخالق الذي لا تمتلك أي إثبات علمي على وجوده
    كما لا أمتلك أنا أي إثبات علمي على عدم وجوده
    وإذا كان الإله الذي تؤمن به هو الذي نزل القرآن سأعتبره أنا “قيمة اجتماعية” في الغالب قيمة وضعها الرجل ليحافظ على رتبته , وهو أيضا قيمة نفسية دفاعية وضعها الإنسان ” خوفا ” .. خوفا من المجهول !!
    الانسان ضعيف , كان يخاف من ظواهر طبيعية كالبرق والرعد , فتحول لعبادتها ظننا انها غضب الإله , مع الوقت تطور العلم وأمست هذه الظواهر مفسرة.. مثال حي آخر هو مسألة الفيضانات والعواصف, في حين يفسر علماء الجيولوجيا الأسباب العلمية لحدوث عاصفة كاثرينا يكتفي المسلمين بترديد ” غضب الله على المشركين , النصارى , الملحدين ..” تمام كما كان يفعل الانسان القديم في تفسير ظواهر طبيعية كان لا يستطيع تفسيرها .. هنالك ظواهر كثيرة لا يزال العلم عاجز عن تفسيرها لكن مع الوقت ستكتشف وستفهم .. يذهلني عند المسلمين كيف يسارع هؤلاء مثلا عند كل اكتشاف علمي التوجه الى القرآن وتحويل النص من خلال تفسيره لما يتوافق مع الاكتشاف الجديد حتى يقول هؤلاء … انظروا انه القرآن المعجزة !! ألا تعتقد أنه استخفاف بعقولنا ؟

    بالنسبة لمسألة القوامة !!
    قلت أن القوامون هم كثيروا القيام ؟؟ وقصدت على ما يبدو كثيروا القيام لإعالة عائلاتهم وزوجاتهم!!
    إذاً
    ما حكم المرأة المعيلة الوحيدة ؟ ما حكم المرأة التي تعمل دون زوجها ؟ ما حكم النساء اللواتي يتقاضين ضعف ما يتقاضاه الرجل من العمل ؟ لماذا يجب ان يكون الرجل قواما في مثل هذه الحالات ؟؟

    قد تكون نقاطي صغيرة بالنسبة لك .. لكنها كبيرة جدا بالنسبة لي

    آيا
    في الواقع نشاز تعني المكان المرتفع
    الناشز هو ما كان ناتئا مرتفعا عن مكانه
    وأنا لم أختر الإسم,
    إلا نبيذي هو الذي اختار الإسم عندما كنت أكتب في مدونتي , أظنه قصد ( الصوت الخارج عن المألوف )

    Reply

  30. AyyA
    Oct 10, 2006 @ 21:36:59

    You-sif
    LOL, what made you think that I got mad? And my last comment was not an introduction to define my God, I was simply stating my opinion towards your offer to have a debate about God when “defining God” was not the issue in my post to start with. And “God is justice” was just a figure of speech and not the total definition. If we go into the debate of defining God we’ll probably never finish and also get nowhere, because simply neither you, nor I, nor anyone can define God. I was simply closing the subject on that.
    La tekhaf 3alai nafasi 6eweel, I only avoid debates that go nowhere and has no significance because I’m a practical person.
    Cheers🙂

    Nashaz
    Thanks dear

    Reply

  31. AyyA
    Oct 10, 2006 @ 21:41:43

    Oh, and btw; AyyA, is written with alef not ta2 marboo6ah, which means the Goddess of wisdom, this name was given to me by Aba El7akam ibn Hisham; 3ajal allaho farajah😉

    Reply

  32. bosale7
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 02:19:22

    اية او ايا …. جميلة بكل الاحوال🙂

    تحياتي

    Reply

  33. bosale7
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 02:34:19

    اقري هالموضوع وعطيني رايج🙂

    http://reeeema.blogspot.com/2006/10/blog-post_09.html#comments

    Reply

  34. AyyA
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 03:34:57

    bosale7
    Bosale7
    I believe that Quran is not understandable. Whether it was meant to be this way, or others played with it’s verses like cut and paste ligayatin fi nafsi ya3goob, is not the point. The result is a book we have today and we need to examine. A set of verses that can have different interpretation for one simple reason; it contains a bundle of contradictory verse.
    I call this century, the century of miracles in Quran. When Moslem scientists are striving to interpret Quran verses and match it to modern science, even if they use all types of fraud. And that is not new to Moslems who were (and still are) using the verses in connection with superstition and gin stories to convince man or terrorize his mind into religion.
    One example of that is “Altharah”; the atom, which was believed to be a miracle, how could Islam have known the smallest, unseen entity? This is by itself a miracle. While if they go back in history; tharah was used even before Islam to indicate a smallest thing, this word was a part of their language usage.
    If Quran is a miracle; it should be suitable for all locations and time, and not subject to different interpretations, in other words; subject to man’s rules and not that of God’s.

    Reply

  35. tttt
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 04:42:21

    Reply

  36. erzulie
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 06:00:36

    I just find it illogical for MANY females to believe in the Quran when it, according to this post, humiliates them. Let’s not forget the scores of converts…

    So basically, I think the interpretations are wrong. If they seem unsatisfactory, I think it’s the difference in our time/setting and when these verses were composed by MEN only.

    I think men are to blame here i.e. the victors write history, they might as well write others’ futures.

    Reply

  37. AyyA
    Oct 11, 2006 @ 14:32:36

    tttt
    Khoosh 7achi, I commend this cleric for it, but is it feasible?
    Could Moslems apply the morals of debate with non-Moslems as well? How about with non-believers; the infidels? Or is this only a debate that can be applied within sects? Within the boundaries of religion that is?
    This is the problem with religion; no one examines its authentic aspects, all debates are allowed within the context of religion, using logic in a closed boundaries, depending on forged histories.
    He said we should be open to other people’s beliefs and willing to accept them if they produce enough evidence, and where would you get enough evidence if your sources are limited to religious books?

    Erzulie
    I like the way you think, and I’m sure you’ll reach your own truth one day, and believe me, it is a big relief.

    Reply

  38. The Extreme Moderate
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 00:50:27

    A man is only allowed to hit his wife as a last resort, and *only* as a last resort. For example: if she continues to show disobedience by leaving the house and not telling him where she is going, then after admonishing her through speech fails and so on and so forth, he is allowed to raise his hand.

    Still, doing so comes with its own set of requirements and rules. Firstly, the man is not allowed under any circumstances to touch or strike her face.

    Secondly, when beating her, he is not allowed to inflict any harm, pain or damage upon her person. None whatsoever. There is no specifuc 7adeeth that mentions these details in the context of beating one’s wife; yet, we know all of this is so because of the other various a7adeeth that mention it is impermissible to strike another Muslim’s face, and to cause him or her harm, pain or injury.

    Furthermore, the wife may certainly do the same, provided she meets the requirements outlined above. I would advise you, dear Ayya, to not speak on the subject of Islam until you obtain some knowledge of it, and even then, only do so until you are 100% certain of what you are saying.

    Peace.

    Reply

  39. AyyA
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 01:07:50

    I do not accept the idea of wife beating, be it for a reason or not. It’s inhumane and barbaric; be it a strong slap or with miswak. Women are not a property of anyone, and finding justness in religion to do so, is the ultimate unjustness.

    Reply

  40. The Extreme Moderate
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 02:49:04

    Right. Please read over what I said once more. If you are not striking the face, and if you are not causing pain, harm or injury—is it really a beating? If you don’t mind, I’d like to answer that question: no, it isn’t.

    Knowing this, is it still “inhumane and barbaric”? A “strong slap” would cause pain and possibly injury. Therefore, according to what Islam dictates, that sort of behavior is out.

    Indeed, the Noble Prophet (SAWS) said something to the effect of those who slap their own faces are not of his Ummah.

    If you still don’t understand, let me know.

    Peace.

    Reply

  41. AyyA
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 03:06:52

    Even a word can be insulting and would leave hard scars on one’s emotions. You see it’s not only the beating; it’s the whole idea of women being owned by men who can treat them with such specifics mentioned in Quran. How come there are no verses to straighten men by women? Why should women always be the wrong doers? We are all human, and there is no difference between us when it comes to faults. Why should women always be obedient to their husbands? Are they their slaves? moreover; why are they considered to be najisat when they have their periods? Isn’t the period a natural process? why should I cover myself so that man can handle his animalistic desires? Why doesn’t he cover himself, didn’t God know that I have desires too.
    There are so many things in Islam preaching that dehumanizes women where the mere comment here is beyond that scope.
    I hope you do understand the point I’m trying to make.

    Reply

  42. The Extreme Moderate
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 15:00:33

    You’ve deserted the topic completely. Nevertheless, before I do the same, let me just say that the Prophet (PBUH) told us not to hit our wives, and he (PBUH) also said that the best among us is the one who is best to his wife.

    In this regard, the verses that are directed towards men are this way because Islam considers the man to be the main breadwinner of the family. Thus, it is the man that is in charge of the family’s welfare and well-being. There’s nothing odd or unnatural about this.

    Women are not always the wrong doers, and neither are the men. The Qur’an never says this; you have. You have made a grave error in assuming this, in what could only have come about–from what I can tell–from preconcieved notions or a lack of knowledge on the subject.

    A woman should always be obedient to her husband because in this way, familial harmony is ensured. It is also because, as I’ve already stated, the man is the main breadwinner of the family and is the one who is in charge of its day-to-day affairs. Women are not the slaves of men; it is only you who seems to think they are (Islam certainly doesn’t).

    Definitely if the man asks his wife to do something that goes against the rulings of Islam, then, by all means, the woman is to disobey her husband and do what is right.

    I also cannot believe you don’t understand why a woman is considered untouchable when she is going through her period. What man in his right mind would want to touch a woman while she is undergoing such a process? Furthermore, what woman would be okay with that happening?

    I don’t think I need to explain to you the details of what occur to a woman while she is having her period. Knowledge of this alone should be enough to make you understand why a woman is deemed off-limits during that special time of the month.

    A woman is to cover herself in such a way that her figure is not revealed, so as to ensure the modesty of her own self and to ensure that strange men are not enticed. Of course, no one is saying that men can’t control themselves; that, if given the chance, they would immediately pounce on a woman who isn’t covered.

    No. But by looking at a woman and admiring her figure, a man is sinning. By the woman covering herself modestly, the man is now being reminded that he should not look. Also, like I said, it is about modesty, and Islam recognizes the beauty of women and recognizes the importance of affording her due respect.

    By saying we want our women to be covered, we are saying we respect our women. Think about it. Moreover, the man also has his 7ijaab, and that is to lower his gaze (something women should do also), and to cover himself from his navel to his knees.

    A man should also not walk around in tight stretchy shirts that reveal his muscular figure, because, as you have so rightly mentioned, women have needs too. Islam does not “dehumanize” women; not at all. It is only you who thinks so, again, because you lack knowledge.

    Reply

  43. The Extreme Moderate
    Jan 08, 2007 @ 15:17:59

    Oh, and I challenge you to provide proof from the Qur’an that Islam “dehumanizes” women. You won’t be able to.

    Reply

  44. Ammar
    Sep 14, 2007 @ 05:13:54

    Hie To all..
    actually,, everything you say about Islam treating woman is wrong, and when you say “man should Hit a woman”, Not True, also the Hitting part is not as you imagine,”with a sword” its very very unpainful like a small nudge on the head,, something all Americans do to their children everyday (specially Infant), and when saying Men are Better (“ghawama” as you say).. this is a fact not only in islam but also in all religions, and even in nature.(just look around and you will see it very clearly unless you are blind),even in movies or when describing anything people always tend to use Man as a figure of Power and Wisdom,. and Also,, women DO LIKE A MAN being the leader..(I don’t think a woman would rather marry a hopless weak man rather than a knight ),and another thing,, Islam Is the first to put a respect to women and a share of the Money and Rules for treating a woman equally to men. you should read more..
    p.s. We Don’t Actually need you to become muslim, we don’t really care, islam is the truth whether you like it or not, just please keep your ignorant to yourself,, and always keep in your mind Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. and as long as Allah exists Islam exists. and I Do Feel Sorry For You.

    Reply

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