AlBagli Democracy

Ali AlBagli wrote in AlGabas today that we “the Arab countries” do not deserve democracy. And he gave examples of what had happened in Iraq and Egypt. And I add here Palestine. I would have to disagree with him on the bases that we do not deserve democracy although I know he said that out of desperation and that was his sarcastic way to let out. Democracy is our only way to survive. Yet democracy needs its prerequisites. It can’t be applied to a nation or nations which do not believe in human rights. Islam and human rights do not go hand in hand. Applying democracy in Moslem countries is wrong so long religion is a part of its legislation. Religion has to be separated completely from state and citizens should be fully educated and aware of their basic rights. The populous especially women have to change their preprogrammed mentalities of being justified by an unjust ideology and then you can apply democracy. That’s why democracy had succeeded in Japan and other dictatorial countries in a significant time frame and it will never succeed in Moslem countries no matter how long it is practiced.

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21 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Purgatory
    Apr 06, 2006 @ 19:40:00

    democracy is a failed system, its an idealistic approach to governing people, which will never work, even in Japan.

    The only way to rule people is by force and an iron fist. The law of the Jungle will always be the way forward, any attempts to fight that leads to this current situation we have in the world.

    Reply

  2. Papillona ®
    Apr 06, 2006 @ 20:49:00

    Ok I’ll say this in Arabic

    للأسف هذا تاريخ مجتمعاتنا الشرقية. حضاراتنا قامت على أساس الإستبداد والإستعباد (مثال: الحضارة الفرعونية) المشكلة لما يقولون إن احنا مو كفو ديمقراطية ما تقدرين تلومينهم

    يعني العراق للأسف الشديد إن كل من يقول محد عارفلهم غير صدام ولو إني أكره إني أقول هالكلام

    أوافق فصل الدين عن الدولة
    فالدين لله والوطن للجميع

    المشكلة الأساسية بالتعليم
    نلاحظ مناهج الدين فيها ازدواجية و من المهم إعادة النظر فيها و تعديلها لأن المضمون يفشل
    أضيف إلى ذلك إن مناهج الدراسة في مجتمعاتنا مافيها تخصص حقوق الإنسان بل نجد أنه غالبا ما يكون إختياري

    طبعا انا مفصفصة تقارير التنمية السنوية لدولنا المتخلفة والمتنيلة بستين نيلة

    أقدر أشتط بالتفاصيل أكثر بس مابي أهذر عليكم

    Reply

  3. Erzulie
    Apr 06, 2006 @ 22:44:00

    I agree with separating Church from State so to speak, but I think that you’ve said a few things that made me raise an eyebrow as in “Islam and human rights do not go hand in hand.” I don’t think we should look at how Islamic law is applied in, for example, Saudi Arabia, because that’s not a standard of executing the Sharee3ah righteously.

    Reply

  4. iDip
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 00:41:00

    This may not please some readers, but Islam doesn’t contradict with human rights, it’s muslims who made islam contradictable.

    Throughout our history we experienced a lot of sociological, economic, sectarian & political dilemmas, and that’s why there was “Ijtihad” & scores of scholars that kept “sanity” and reason in their interpretations.
    Unfortunately, when “ijtihad” was put to an end, muslims started to face countless dilemmas in their life & in their relationship with “non-originally” islamic ideas. One of which, was “secularism”.

    Secularism doesn’t require the abolition of religion nor its role in people’s life, but ends its control over the “state”. On the other hand, a secular state must not control religion (see: Egypt).
    So such separation is meant to be a way to make both work in its endeavour without interference, but by cooperating. And since we are 100s of years back in “ijtihad”, a state with politics and religion cooperating separately is out of sight, at least for ten years to come.

    Reply

  5. nice
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 00:47:00

    عاد هل البغلي مقياس نقيس على كلامه
    مو اهو يطالب بالحق لكن حسب المصلحة
    مو اهو احد ثلاثة متداول اسمائهم لإحلاة قضيتهم للنيابة العامة لاستغلال معلومة وشراء اسهم
    نشوف الايام وين تلقي ظلالها

    Reply

  6. Reema
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 04:43:00

    I totally agree with idip Islam has covered every detail when it comes to human and animal rights but sadly things went wrong throughout history, any religion can’t be judged by the conception of some people driven by politics, greed, fundamentalism ..ect

    Reply

  7. AyyA
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 10:29:00

    Purgy wurgy
    So, basically you are supporting communism? :p

    Papi
    Hathrai kithir ma tabeen , I love hathritich. 🙂

    Erzulie
    Forget about Saudi Arabia, look at Iran and Afghanistan, or any country that tried to strictly apply Islamic laws, do you think that it had preserved at least women’s rights? Or even forget about Islam as a rule, how many Moslem born little girls have detested being the inferior gender treated unfairly under the control of her male family members?

    iDip
    Islam and human rights is a huge issue that needs a post of its own, but let me give a brief explanation to reiterate the point I mentioned “Islam and human rights do not go hand in hand”:
    The basic structure of the Islamic social system is the superiority of man. A man being the sole provider for the family is the bases of all social, economical and political systems of Islam. It rendered women dependant at the least and inferior at the most. And according to this concept women inheritance is half of that of a man and her testimony in court is half valid. Moreover; Islam is not tolerant of other religions; it accepts only Christianity and Judaism and even those would have to pay a fine (jizyah) and their testimony in court is not accepted against a Moslem, this directly denotes them as second citizens. Other believers such as Buddhism and Hindus are considered infidels and Islam (Quran) explicitly orderd killing them (wa gatiloohom 7aitho wajatomoohom). Slavery is recognized by Islam; few years ago a prominent Saudi government cleric Sheik Al-Fawzan announced that Islam advocates slavery, check this link. His teachings were not based on interpretation or ijtihad; it was based on the original preaching of Quran.

    Nice
    We don’t criticize people here; we are debating his point of view.

    Reema
    I agree with you and iDip on one point; “things went wrong throughout history”, and it started right after the prophet’s death. This by itself is a testimony that the mass of the original Moslems did not enter Islam for a solid belief as history tries to portray them. The mass had entered Islam for wealth and power through conquests and looting. Examples of that are the Umayyid and the Abbasi dynasties. Islamic history based on tradition (what we took in schools) never explains how did this divergence occur, and what were the real reasons that produced as a result so many different sects we have today.

    Reply

  8. Shurouq
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 15:41:00

    Ayya, I couldn’t agree more.

    Having to choose between democracy and human rights, I’d choose the latter..
    But democracy remains our best shot.

    فتح باب الاجتهاد لا يلغي قدسية النص.. وهني المشكلة

    بالإضافة إلى أن الإسلام يطرح نفسه كمشروع دين ودنيا.. يعني ليس دينا روحانيا كبقية الأديان القابلة للعزل

    رأيي ان محاولات التوفيق بين الدين والعقل محكوم عليها بالفشل ولنا في ابن رشد والأفغاني ومحمد عبده (مع احترامي لهم) مثال

    Reply

  9. Hazolat
    Apr 07, 2006 @ 16:35:00

    Oh Ayya, you brave soul .. what have you gotten yourself into this time? 🙂

    I agree of course, although most would not agree with what you have said. Because, to be honest, I think it’s way too soon for people to think that way. And because by agreeing they would think it was against Islam.

    I agree with seperating religion from state. Because although I’m as old fashioned as can be, I don’t need people I don’t know telling me how to live my life. And by seperation, you give people more religious freedom, something that I think would make followers and Muslims in general more true towards God in their life and daily actions.

    As for human rights and islam .. I agree with you Ayya because you are looking at the true human rights notions which state that we are all equal and that man and woman are the same, which islam doesn’t agree with.

    Anyway I think what you have posted was great but it could have used more examples and explanations .. ykoon a6wal ya3ni 🙂

    God bless,
    Deeray Balich 3ala Roo7ich 😛

    I’m so sleep deprived i got that word verification wrong a couple of times.

    Reply

  10. Purgatory
    Apr 08, 2006 @ 10:09:00

    Nope dictatorship, the old fashioned style.

    Reply

  11. AyyA
    Apr 08, 2006 @ 18:42:00

    Shurouqa
    Thanks dear; your addition to the subject is invaluable

    Hazolat said…
    I like the way you perceive things; “something that I think would make followers and Muslims in general more true towards God in their life and daily actions” indeed this is true. Religion’s role before anything is spiritual and no one likes to be doubted on his/her belief. Yet; criticism will not stop unless religion stops controlling people’s life and becomes optional. Why is it called a belief then when it is in reality mandatory?
    As for the briefness of the post; I meant to have it brief, not many people like to read long posts. Wi elbaraka beekom and your invaluable addition 🙂
    And moreover I do not think that it’s too soon for people to think rationally. This may have been true for our father’s generation when all what they learned was from their surroundings, religious clerics and some education for the privileged; otherwise the mass did not know any better. But with the educated people of today and the age of technology where information is at the tip of one’s finger, people do not have any excuse. A belief has to be supported not only taken as per say.

    Purgatory
    The purgatorial style you mean …. ha?
    It’s been a long time since you had my honey, you are becoming fierce :p

    Reply

  12. Hazolat
    Apr 08, 2006 @ 21:13:00

    I don’t agree, I think that this generation is not ready for a religious revolution. For us to want religious freedom, or any kind of freedom to set us free and to humanize us, we have to first realize how oppressed we are and to desperately want to break free.

    And at the time being, I truly think that the public is not ready to either realize or break free. I think that the 70’s generation, the generation of our parents, had a much better chance than we have today, of totally reforming Kuwait on all levels.

    To me it seems like we’re in a much worse situation than we were 15 or more years ago, and I hate to be a pessimist but I feel that we as a public lack the awareness and will, needed to reform.

    As for our “fathers generation”, well basically I was brought up by parents and also grandparents who sought to enlighten me in a way that makes me grateful to have been one of the lucky ones. So I think that their “surroundings and religious clerics” did not stop them from being rational and aware of their own true voice.

    By that I mean .. that yesterday’s generation might not have had many of the things we have today, but they had much more freedom, I think than today’s generation, in terms of expressing themselves religiously.

    Reply

  13. AyyA
    Apr 09, 2006 @ 08:51:00

    Hazolat
    I definitely agree with you about the spread of the Islamic wave in Kuwait and the space of freedom exercised is much less than it used to be. And this is all due to the ones that took control over power in the country as a whole. Yet; my previous comment was for individual thoughts; a rational thinking between man and himself, not necessarily a revolution against religion. It is true that Islamic control has done a lot of damage to our education system and resulted in a constant brain washing of the new generation. Yet, with the openness of countries to each other through technology and mass-media, it is not hard for an individual to seek the truth and form his own belief and stop being a follower even if he did not declare that openly. And I believe that a lot of people had already done that.
    One thing though remains hard to tackle; FEAR. Fear of rejection, fear of being scrutinized and judged. And in my opinion this is the hardest obstacle to overcome and prevents individuals from stating their honest opinions, let alone expressing their revolutionary thoughts. But if we allow this fear to overtake us, no one would dare to express his/her own opinion and this gives way to more restrictions and thawabi6 which would defiantly lead the country to the dark ages. If it is hard for an individual today to speak up, in future it would become almost impossible.

    Reply

  14. error
    Apr 09, 2006 @ 14:02:00

    The idea of state and church separation cannot be applied in the Islamic society for a couple of reasons.

    Unlike Christianity our prophet P. was directly governing the Islamic society in Madena

    The righteously guided Khulafa successfully practiced Shura thru their Shura council and with the people but for some reason the council failed to pass to other generations.

    Ironically even pagan Arabs practiced Shura in mecca they had a council called Dar Alnadwa.

    Separation of state and Church only works in Christianity given the nature of the religion. This concept cannot be applied in either Islam nor do Judaism and who ever says Israel is a secular state tell him to go drink from the toilet!

    I believe once Islam becomes defined i.e. appropriate…what is appropriate? Then we will make it.

    Reply

  15. Hazolat
    Apr 09, 2006 @ 16:43:00

    error,

    I think that seperating religion from state can be applied, regardless of which religion it is. It all depends on the people and what they think is best for them. I don’t think seperation applies to this religion and not that.

    The proof to that is even Christianity, when the Chritians thought it was time to seperate religion from state, went through a revolution, sacrificing their lives in order to seperate, thus gaining a world that they thought was better for them.

    Seperating religion from state is not an easy matter, especially in the Muslim world, due to the ‘fear factor’. Literally fear for our lives. Europeans decided their lives would not be worth much unless seperation was administered.

    So the question is, are we ready for this? Do we need it bad enough, and are we willing to sacrifice.

    Reply

  16. Jewaira
    Apr 09, 2006 @ 19:42:00

    Religion must be separate from the state, even in modern Muslim states.
    It is the only way to get outof the rut we are in.
    Too often, people use Islam as a political tool and as a front to further their own agenda. And behind that front, they do what they want. There is no real spirituality, is there?

    And AyyA – great topic.

    Reply

  17. error
    Apr 10, 2006 @ 21:55:00

    Spirituality is not necessarily religion i.e. I can be spiritual without religion! However superficiality is a beautiful part of religion.

    In the case of Christianity, the central authority of religion “Catholicism” the pope basically, started to exaggerate his “religion authority” وصاية so Protestantism appeared which as a movement aimed to decentralize the religious authority consequently leading to the European renaissance and thus to individualism where as (كل واحد وصي على نفسة)

    I think the first step to our earthly salvation is to understand what Islam is and to abolish the concept of an Imam telling us what Islam should be like.

    Reply

  18. Purgatory
    Apr 11, 2006 @ 13:25:00

    Are you in a honey offering mood these days?

    Reply

  19. AyyA
    Apr 11, 2006 @ 18:06:00

    I’m always in the honey offering mood; it just depends on what type of honey you are looking for 😉

    Reply

  20. Purgatory
    Apr 11, 2006 @ 18:56:00

    am flexible, whatever kind you have these days.

    Reply

  21. AyyA
    Apr 12, 2006 @ 21:16:00

    Then deal, just wait tell I get back from Lebanon, btw; I got my phone line back, after almost 6 months of suffering. Mind you its Sarayat time, I hope the rain won’t mess with my cable again and leave me lineless for another 6 months, allah yaster.

    Reply

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